Hey monkeys, I'm on a plane from CLT to PHX, and I have wifi, and I'm not in the mood to work on my book. I like giving you guys some of my more thoughtful newsletter articles every once in a while, but I've never directly contributed to the forum. I have a few hours to kill, so I wanted to share my thoughts on how to get a job on Wall Street (which is what we are all here for).
How to Get a Wall Street Job without Connections
It is hard, almost impossible to get a job on Wall Street if you are an outsider. And, if you are in school, and you have no Wall Street experience, you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, no matter how many books you have read, and you are going to sound like an idiot in an interview. There are no two ways about it. The good news is that many people are in the same boat and will sound like idiots in interviews. The bad news is that some of these people know guys on the inside.
When I started at Lehman, plunked down in the 2001 Associate class, the first thing I realized was that everyone seemed to know each other. Lots of my classmates already knew people at various places in the firm. Partly this was because some of them were interns the summer before, but also, rich kids tend to know other rich kids from the Tri-State area. It's a small community. People know each other. That's a fact, and you can't do anything about it. All you can do is to work on making yourself a more attractive candidate.
So going back to when I was in business school, in 1998 or 1999, I tracked down the one and only guy I knew who was a trader, called him up. He told me that I had no shot and I should just give up. Actually--he did have one piece of advice--he said I was going to need a story on why I wanted to become a trader, and it was going to have to be a good one. Then he hung up, expecting never to hear from me again.
How to Break into WS from a Non-Target School
I went to what you call a very non-target school, and I was fully aware that the bulge-bracket banks didn't recruit there (even the local broker-dealers, like Montgomery or H&Q or Sutro didn't recruit there), so I decided I was going to have to do it the old-fashioned way--by working my way up from the mailroom. Not quite--I got a job as a clerk on the trading floor, fetching coffee and sandwiches and entering in trade tickets and running risk reports.
But then something interesting happened. While I was fetching coffee and sandwiches and entering in trade tickets, I started to learn a lot about options. I mean, I was working on the damn options floor, I was immersed in it. It's like the best way to learn French is just to live in France for a year. So I got really smart about options even though I never had any formal quantitative instruction like the kind people get when they go to University of Chicago. So when I was in that final round interview at Lehman, and the head of interest rate derivatives started asking me options questions, and I got them right, he was stoked because the whiz kids from Wharton never did, because they only had textbook knowledge, not practical knowledge.
Getting the interview was another matter entirely. That was a function of pure aggression, like, cold-calling recruiters, something I don't enjoy.
My intern at The Daily Dirtnap is off looking for jobs this week, in Boston. He is lucky, because I was able to introduce him to people. This makes him an insider, not an outsider, and he doesn't have to work as hard. He's tried on his own. Non-target school, average resume, no chance. But he is gaining experience working for me, and won't sound so dumb in an interview.
There is a life lesson here. It's not a matter of luck. You have to make your own luck. Mailing in a resume is a million to one shot. For every Bieber and Upton "discovered" on YouTube, there are a lot of people sitting at home, waiting for something to happen to them. But nothing happens to you in your apartment. And if you can't get in through the front door, then you get in through the side door or the back door. And sometimes it takes time. Sometimes it takes years of fetching coffee and entering in trade tickets. I think younger people don't understand this. The back office or middle office job can be a huge stepping-stone, even if you have to suffer occasional indignities from bankers or traders. And these days, working at a small or mid-size firm can be just as good, or better, than a BB.
And if all else fails, and you don't get the job, there are a lot of other ways to make a lot of money in this world. You just have to be a little more creative.
Mod Note: Best of WSO, this was originally posted December 2013.
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Comments (127)
I would give you a SB if I had one, thanks for the encouragement :) - back to work
Second that.
? but you do, your account still shows 1 WSO Credit left, so you can reward away :-)
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+1
It's only getting harder too.This site makes it difficult for people to realize middle office and back office jobs are great positions out of college, just not the best.
"It's only getting harder, too" - true that, in finance. Everywhere else making money is getting easier IF you're creative enough.
What do you mean by creative enough?
These are the banks you only want to be in if you want to go to MEGA FUND
Tier1: Evercore, GS,MS, Moelis, Lazard, PJT(maybe)
Tier2: JP, Greenhill, Centerview, PWP
Tier3: cs,baml, Citi
Tier 4: barcap, DB
Shit: UBS, houlihan, Jefferies
this is not accurate at all...i know an MD group head at one of the Tier 1 firms who came from associate/VP from one of the "shit" firms.
Great post. +1
Very nice post +1
SB+1 for you Jared. Great insightful advice! Yes, younger candidates esp. should see merit in starting somewhere. Just get on and go from there.
solid post +1
Thanks, Jared. I'm inspired but what about the fact that if you go into middle or back office roles that you can become labelled very easily as a middle or back office person and find it almost impossible to break out of that perception that you're the technology (or operations or accounting) person? This forum is filled with horror stories of people getting labelled and stuck and unable to escape their middle / back office roles after a few years in the industry.
Pigeonholing workers seems to be very intense these days (probably because everyone and their grandmother wants to work on Wall St.) and as someone in grad school trying to break in I've actually avoided applying to any back office roles for fear of the back office trap.
Anyone I know who went to trade support who wanted to come down to the desk, came down to the desk. The reality is that most people in the back office are perfectly content to stay in the back office. So it's not hard to distinguish yourself.
Twitter: @dailydirtnap
Thanks, it's great to hear that.
Thanks for the post...impressive collection of SBs...already ranked in the top #30 all time: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/highest-ranked-discussions
Also will be the headline post in our Weekly Wrap newsletter this afternoon...
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While pigeonholing workers early and harshly to their career detriment is becoming even more and more acute with "specialization to the max" mentality seen everywhere now, the reasoning our friend uses IS also GOOD advice in that its about who you know and can refer you to whomever you have to be fortunate enough to meet for your future success to occur at rate you desire. The more folks you meet, the chances increase. You do have to sell yourself for sure, no one will do it for you unless you are very lucky.
Excellent post, and great story. Thanks so much for sharing, it's very encouraging.
+1. Great advice and encouragement
Cool story! That is similar to what Soros did. He mailed every fund in London until he got a job as a bookkeeper; he proceed to work his way to trader. From there he went into ER. After that he started a HF.
I do have a word of caution. For every Bieber there is a Tebow. Sometimes untalented people seem to succeed effortlessly while extremely talented people flounder. To his credit Bieber is a master marketer. He knows how to manipulate people to his advantage. On the other hand, Tebow is too nice.
What do Bieber Dimon, Walter White have in common that Tebow does not?
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/jamie-dimon-is-wall-streets-chuck-norr…
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/05/13/jamie-dimon-JPMorgan/
//www.youtube.com/embed/rvemO6DpKPY
Thanks for the post. I had a terrible day at work due to our regional manager being very hard on us, my contributions towards my performance exceeded in year 2013 and essentially which led to increase expectations, work in a retail environment, I will def take your advice to break out of it, I do need your suggestion on how to handle this situation where expectations are higher however clear path of promotion is not clear since he would rather keep me because of my performance. Sorry it was bit irrelevant to your original post
Good read, good read
Good post, thanks!
Good write-up.
Jared, hurry your ass up and pump out your next book. When I first picked up Street Freak, I couldn't put it down and finished it in 2 days (my best personal record with reading).
Great advice. This is just the kind of hustle and entrepreneurial spirit we believed in at Lehman. You are doing your part to pay it forward and for that, I deliver you +1 SB.
awesome post. best read this week.
hustle hustle hustle. Make your own luck, love it
That's a quote from Batman
Great Post, Thank you
Great post, very motivational.
Respect
In the 80s ,90s and 2000s,financial engineering shine,moving assets around,restructuring,selling,buying real assets is the place to be,so someone bought sears and kmart and see all these real estate properties which they can sell and make good money,to hell with retailing. Now e commerce rules and we will see plenty of physical bank branches,malls,strip malls for sale and factories? they are old and antiquated and would be demolished. Do we need an army of investment bankers travelling around the country advising ceos what to do? we do,but we dont need more,we need less
the hustler always wins, end of story! Thank you so much for taking time to share this post and reminds us that the person who wants it the most gets it eventually!!
Good read, thank you OP.
my,Dick Fuld is here,is that really him?
I love the post! Honestly, I am from Non-targets with no contacts. We don't take offers, we earn for it.
why even bother to look for a job? Let the job comes to you??
Great post! +1 SB You are so right about the last part - one cannot simply wait for the opportunity to run over him while sitting at home or something, opportunities have to be created.
you guys just dont seem to get it. let the job finds you not the other round of you looking for a job. If you can grasp what I am saying,you will be gainfully employed in no time
wise man, thank you for your touch of infinite wisdom.
great post. very inspiring to someone like me, who is coming from a very non-target. moral of the story is if you want it bad enough, do what you got to do to get there.
Nailed it.
Twitter: @dailydirtnap
Much needed inspiration, thanks a lot Jared.
Have to echo the importance of a good story. Nothing is more of a turn off for me than talking to someone who wants to be in private equity/ finance to make money. A true interest/ passion for the industry shows and and is more important to me than a resume (although it takes a good resume to get in the door usually).
A lot of people are disappointed when they get nowhere after shooting dozens (or hundreds) of resumes. I think it makes more sense to make yourself useful, develop a niche, and solve a problem to where your utility ranking improves. If your work becomes known and recognized, you'll get a job sooner than later.
Like how primary docs make 50K and speciality bimbo docs make 450000? Specialize and do it way better than most others and that's a huge huge assist.
Great article Jared.
Hey, Jared Dillian. What a great post. I would of gave you bananas if I could. I'm from a non -target school in the northeast. I have been out of school for a couple of years now. I was wondering if you can mentor me. . Ciao
@"Jared Dillian" : Whoa whoa whoa...you're writing another book? Monkey's Review time!
FYI I read your book Street Freak.
That's the way
GREAT SHARE.
Thanks for this post. I'm from a non-target and it is becoming clear that this will be a pretty steep uphill battle but this insight has been inspirational. Thanks again
@bmcpherson77: Was a non-target too but broke into FI - Never think it's not possible.
@TraderDaily : thanks. Just gotta keep the networking train rollin' and keep my eyes open for anything that will give me a leg up.
love stories/posts like this, gives me motivation. anybody know any links/stories that show doing whatever it takes to break in? see the gary cohn story http://www.businessinsider.com/how-gary-cohn-got-his-start-on-wall-stre…
I can resonate with this post on so many levels. I believe wholeheartedly that you have to make your luck in this world.
Awesome post. Thanks, Jared.
Inspiring!
This is an amazing post. Thanks for sharing.
Nice post +1
Good job - enjoyed reading your thread. +1
Thanks for your post Jared, great thread :)
amazing read
Short & concise. Perfect
SB+1. Respect from a non-target kid who is trying to break into Wall Street.
Nice and interesting story
Fantastic read
Excellent Advice.
Great post!
great post!
Thanks man, this was much needed on a Monday at my deadbeat job. Gotta keep working!
Thanks man, this was much needed on a Monday at my deadbeat job. Gotta keep working!
Inspiring!
Thanks for the post Jared, excellent piece
I wish I had seen something like this when I was a 20-year old college student who was horrified over the fact that I was at a non-target undergrad.
@"Jared Dillian" Great post!! Thank you
Great post!
Going to go make my own luck now...
Great post!
Going to go make my own luck now...
idt
As a student from non-target, this post is definitely a great motivation for me. Thank you.
Someone asked me last weekend how do I get a job in finance, I said it's relatively easy. I'll tell you how I did it and hopefully it will help you on your journey. I came from an EM country, and arrived in the midwest for my undergraduate at Northwestern. I was a Computer Science major, and decided in my fourth year to do Economics also. I didn't know what a Investment Bank was until the January of my graduation year. So given this limited planning and foresight, I made Managing Director at Goldman Sachs at age 34. I'll tell you how I managed to do it.
Step 1: Start reading books, magazines, newspapers to do with finance – choose whichever branch of finance you want to go into and understand the lingo. So for example, since I wanted to do Sales & Trading, I read the Financial Times, the Wall St Journal, Business Week, Forbes, Fortune. Anything I could get my hands on to get the lingo.
Step 2: Find all the movies you can find on the industry, watch those too. All careers are specific tribes, with their own cultures, languages, short hand. You need to learn the lingo before people will take you seriously. You want to sound and look like an insider.
Step 3: Find the opportunities. Talk to friends, talk to family, read the newspapers, look at job websites, look at the websites of the companies you are interested in working for, call your university career office.
Step 4: Learn to write resumes and cover letters. Best way to learn is to see a lot of samples. Build expertise in doing this. Go work in the Career Center if you need to.
Step 5: Learn to interview, the trick to this is just practice, practice. Do lots of practice interviews, do informational interviews, even apply for jobs you don't want. Its important to just get a lot of hours on the board. Figure out your weaknesses, and figure out your strengths. Make sure you highlight your strengths in each interview.
Step 6: If you have done steps 3-5 well, then you will get a few job offers. Don't agree to any offers until you have received them all, then compare what's on the table in a rational manner. These offers are not final, remember there is always room to negotiate. Negotiate. Once you have maximized the opportunity, make a decision.
Step 7: Show up at the job. Remember at the beginning you know close to nothing, so you are being paid to learn. Make sure you learn. Ask questions every day. Find 5 new people to meet everyday. Figure out how to help them.
Step 8: Figure out what drives your boss and your boss's boss. What is important to them, what are their goals, how do they operate. What are they trying to achieve. Once you understand their goals, help them achieve those goals.
Step 9: Keep learning new things, keep reading, keep your eyes open for new opportunities, figure out how to keep your name out there. Keep growing your network. Treat it as a career marathon, not a sprint. Its about staying in the game as long as possible, so make it fun.
Books you must read:
Never eat Alone (Keith Ferrazi)
The Start Up of You (Reid Hoffman)
Influence (Robert Cialdini)
How to Win Friends and Influence People (Dale Carnegie)
Finance is about people, not numbers.
Nice post!
Thank you for the good advice. Is it possible to hear more?
Words to live by, this and the original post at top, applicable to every career
Thanks for the encouragement!, solid Advice!
+1 Appreciate the words
Thanks, Jared. To the point and simple reply to something very complex (at least for the candidates). Though from a target, I have been in the same position as you described for quite some time. Just joined WSO and I occasionally turn to your post on not-so-great days.
Great post, thank you! Same rules apply to people willing to enter large commodity trading firms. You have to know people.
I really needed to hear this. I am sharpening my skills so when I have the interview for the position that I desire , I will ace it cold.
Great post. +1
Even though I go to a "target school", I still treat it as if it isn't because nothing is guaranteed. I also don't feel like the school I go to helps me/gets me ahead of other people. Just gotta network my butt off.
You will never find this in a textbook. Thanks for the insight, Jared
What about someone from a frontier(not emerging) market? Non-target school from a non-target country. No one bothers to respond on LinkedIn, made over 400 online applications. I have tried to leverage the fact that I'm trading since I was 15, I've got a job as a Portfolio Manager at a local firm to gain some real world experience, enrolled for the CFA L1 exam... but nothing works :D. What should i do? i'd be happy to get my feet toes in.
You need to complete the CFA program at least.
Thank you for your insight.
Hell of a Post!
Hard Truth, but Fair! Humbling, yet Optimistic!
I am going to get my boss some coffee!
You made me more enthusiast! Love this kind of post..!!
Nice!
Good morning to potentially anyone reading,
I am curently in my masters of data science and I've been working at building my network of like minded individuals. Where I live, St. Louis, does not have many individuals that are savvy in this area.
Also, I've been trying to work my way into the investment banking industry. Wealth management and investing is a huge interest and hobby of mine. I've been in control of my funds and have been successful for the last 4 years. It's got to the point where I've had friends ask me to manage their money.
I'm a couple of years out of school (undergrad) and have worked with Anhueser Busch as an hr analyst and have now moved on to Wells Fargo as a business systems consultant.
I'm not stuck by any means but some advice from anyone in the investment banking industry would be awesome.
Will my knowledge from my masters of data science give me a leg up with looking for a firm to work for? What should I do or try and go for?
My undergrad isn't finance but business administration with an emphasis in hr. This has made getting noticed for positions I'm interested in tough. That is why I'm going for my masters in data science. I see it as a valuable skill set and that in addition to my analytical mindset, could become a powerful set of skills for me.
Im a straight shooter and have a lot of irons in the fire
Any advice from anybody willing to give this guy some direction would be amazing.
Hearing from a investment banker, broker, or research/equity analyst, etc would be very cool.
Attend as many networking events as you possibly can.
This is some great advice. I know a boy whose father started out from the bottom and he didnt go to a target school and he got his masters at around 40 years old but he worked hard now he is the CEO of the biggest local bank in my country.
How Do I Get To Wall Street? (Originally Posted: 10/24/2017)
How do I get to Wall Street? I am almost done a 2 year accounting degree from an unheard of school in Vancouver.
All I know is that I want to be a player, like Gordon Gekko. What do I have to do? Get an MBA?
I want to get into mergers and acquisitions like Patrick Bateman and Thomas Crown.
I'm not trolling. These are my actual goals and this is all I know about finance and Wall Street and stuff. Please help. I am willing to work my ass off for this.
Start reading every thread and comment about networking and other relevant skills. Also make sure to return your videotapes.
https://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/wso-hall-of-fame-investment-bank…
Try https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Vancouver,+BC,+Canada/Wall+St,+New+York…this. Let me know if you get lost somewhere.
l0l
What concert costs 45 cents? 50 Cent feat. Nickelback.
Take a left at broad street.
How Does The Underdog Find Their Way Into Wall Street? (Originally Posted: 10/18/2015)
Hi everyone,
I'm very new to this forum. It kept popping up in my many Google searches for more answers. My mind has been blown and now I'm asking for a little guidance
I suppose I'm the antithesis of the kind of person found in banking. Maybe, I don't really have a point of reference. Late twenties, minority, female, only just found out what target / non target schools were last night. In fact I only started learning about actual finance careers outside of say, a financial advisor, because so many guys who "work in finance" introduce themselves this way on my dating profile. My GPA is basement low for good reason but I understand how that doesn't matter nor should it. I have no connections, exposure, nothing to banking. Well, I have a bank account. I've just been desperately spinning my wheels looking for a career that better matched my strengths and far away from health care. I keep ending back here and I can't look away.
Now that I know this exists, I want to do it.
I don't mind working hard as hell and keeping my head down to do so.
But someone like me who is a super outsider is not going to be able to put together the traditional profile to even get an internship right? I've already decided to go back to school (transfer to finish my bachelor's)
Silly question but suppose I did beautifully at a new college which only calculates the GPA within their institution, is it unethical (or even allowed) to apply for internships and jobs with that new GPA?
I understand I'm to network, be overprepared, and network some more. Is this enough? Do most people who make it in to these great jobs have mentors?
I spent some time today reading more about the culture, diversity hires -the pros and cons, etc. To be quite honest with you I can't really tell if the attitudes on the forum is what its like in real life. WSO reads like a good resource. How accurate are these attitudes?
Some threads I read were quick to tell people there was no chance, no hope. How true could this be? Maybe in certain parts of banking? I come from the mind that there is always a way to make something happen. Just about. You guys have some perspective though so share your insights as to what a pre.. PRE candidate is potentially up against.
Career changers, people starting later in life, really anyone who can point me to what it means to start from scratch and make this happen I'd love to hear from you
Sorry for the long first post and thank you!
Good Post. Welcome to WSO.
Healthcare Banking is a huge and maybe something to consider. If you can specialize and build a story around an industry that's one good way to break in. What city are you in? That changes things a lot too. And Major LOL @ FAs who think cold calling for minimum wage 39.5 hours/week qualifies as "work in finance" and can be used to pick up chicks.
1) Use new college GPA. The school will provide you a GPA and if they check that is the one that will show up.
2) Right on the money. Network, network, network. 10 emails a day is a good rule of thumb. This should lead to 1 coffee a week, if it's not you're doing something wrong. Mentors are hard to find and may not be extremely useful. That said, I would target retired industry guys from your alma mater, and don't call them you're mentor until about a year into asking them for advice and meeting on a bi-monthly basis
3) WSO is like the "Vouge" of Wall street. The attitudes on this site are hilarious bullshit. You will notice marked differences when you start meeting guys for coffee. Guys in the industry tend to be humble as hell, for many good reasons. This site is full of childish keyboard warriors with extra time. I tend to be one of them.
4) IB is tough, even for people with a foot in the door and a leg up on their competition. If you want to make it in you will have a whole host of losers (by losers I mean people who "lost" by giving in and giving up") who will tell you that you can't. The odds are against you. The bright side is that Wall-street is a meritocracy (some would disagree) but that means that if you are the best, they want you.
Work hard to make yourself the best, and never say die. You can do it if you never take no for an answer and never think that you know enough or are well-enough prepared.
Good luck!
Go read the Vault guide on Investment Banking and do a ton of research on the industry before you try networking. Otherwise your networking efforts won't be as productive as they could be and people will not refer you to their peers if they feel you are not prepared/don't know anything.
Thank you for this excellent thorough reply realjackryan I just moved back to NYC a few months ago. Right now I'm working on transferring into the best school I can get into given my circumstances so that I have a home base to work on.
In the meantime I'll be reading as much as I can get my hands on. imaseo thanks for the tip. Will do!
What do you want to do? Why should anyone hire you over the universe-full of other qualified people? Until you can answer those questions well, you don't have a chance. So, do everything to get those answers.
You also should realize you are competing against people who have been overachieving their whole lives and are younger than you. Getting your bachelor's degree in your late twenties is going to be a big headwind in the overwhelming majority of cases, but you probably already know that.
Honestly 'finance' can mean a million different things, so you might want to think about a few alternatives that seem appealing and you have a chance for. There are a lot of prestige whores in this industry, so just keep that in mind.
Just find a way to get a foot in the door doing something close to what you want to do.
I'm interested to see if you know the difference between the different types of finance and banking to investment banking. The question is really what do you want to do
how can i get a job in Wall Street (Originally Posted: 09/17/2012)
Hi everyone,
i am an international student and just graduated in May from a bschool in Long island with my MBA in finance. It's been my dream to work in Wall Street since i was young. But i found it so difficult in the passed 4 month. Could anybody help me to make a plan to get a job in wall street. Here is my background which i think you might need to know.
MBA in finance GPA:3.54 GA(graduate assistant) at schoolBS in china(computer science) Internship in a commercial bank in home country internship in a consulting firm in home country manager assistant in a supermarket home country
i just finished a trading training program at a firm in wall street, and this is what i am interested in. while this firm can't give me an offer. Plus what makes thing worse is that i am international student who needs sponsorship in the future. So, how can i get a job in wall street? it doesn't have to be a trader, i dont mind start as a analyst or assistant as long as there is a firm can sponsor me.
any advice will be appreciated.
this has never been covered on WSO. really breaking new ground here.
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